Comments on: Does the Church think big enough? http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/ Faith acts. Faith sees results. Faith is real. Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:31:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.2 By: Hugo Victor http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6504 Hugo Victor Sun, 02 Mar 2008 01:43:58 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6504 And as for churches thinking small enough, I believe that the arc of the story of Acts of the Apostles---from the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem to the home church in Rome---invites us to anticipate, and even participate in, the melting away of the institutional church. Counting churches, or even presumed converts, by the numbers is really an outrageous way to count the countable while saying that the uncountable things that matter to God don't really count. Kierkegaard hit this hard in his 1855 "Attack upon Christendom", a surprisingly readable and caustically funny collection of broadsides from a great philosopher mistakenly perceived as esoteric or obscurantist. Kierkegaard derogates the "statistical Christianity" of his spiritual mentor, the Reformed Bishop of Copenhagen and his successor to the bishopric. The two divines are reminiscent of Robert H. Schuller, another pastor of considerable statistical accomplishment. Big not only is not good, it probably is undesirable. Keep it small. When your church becomes more lay-missional, it will be doing that in a creative way that sends up an antenna array, instead of a sole lightning rod, to the Spirit---a worthy aspiration worthy of inspiriting. On scale, remember which is the business end of the spire. And as for churches thinking small enough, I believe that the arc of the story of Acts of the Apostles—from the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem to the home church in Rome—invites us to anticipate, and even participate in, the melting away of the institutional church. Counting churches, or even presumed converts, by the numbers is really an outrageous way to count the countable while saying that the uncountable things that matter to God don’t really count. Kierkegaard hit this hard in his 1855 “Attack upon Christendom”, a surprisingly readable and caustically funny collection of broadsides from a great philosopher mistakenly perceived as esoteric or obscurantist. Kierkegaard derogates the “statistical Christianity” of his spiritual mentor, the Reformed Bishop of Copenhagen and his successor to the bishopric. The two divines are reminiscent of Robert H. Schuller, another pastor of considerable statistical accomplishment.

Big not only is not good, it probably is undesirable. Keep it small. When your church becomes more lay-missional, it will be doing that in a creative way that sends up an antenna array, instead of a sole lightning rod, to the Spirit—a worthy aspiration worthy of inspiriting. On scale, remember which is the business end of the spire.

]]> By: Hugo Victor http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6501 Hugo Victor Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:39:35 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6501 Well let's please keep this string active, then, Jared, to encourage others to contribute whilst we collect sparks and fire from here and there. You gave me a bit of a chill with your reference to your church's transition from clubby to missional. My beef with my own church is that it cries out for the same transition. They take the position that, no, it is I who sorely cry out for them to make that transition. The club set likes it just the way it is, which is just the way it has been since its founding more than 150 years ago. Here's a painfully specific idea. Have young believers from any of the Abrahamic traditions keep an eye out for advertising that directly contradicts their tradition's doctrine. Then, they can call out the ad in a dedicated blog controlled by the young believers, advised by their elders in faith, and explain in a post why the ad is anathema to their beliefs. Here's a current favorite (as it were) of mine: Dow Chemical's television ad campaign valorizing people as the grand "Human Element", warranting even their own symbol in the Periodic Table of Elements. Humans in the image of God? No, mere elements, raw materials, heaps of "human resources" awaiting productive use. There are many such nihilistically banal commercials and magazine and online ads like this one, and the world makes new ones every day. We should use these as counterfoil texts that can deepen our faith, and our understanding of The Word. Well let’s please keep this string active, then, Jared, to encourage others to contribute whilst we collect sparks and fire from here and there. You gave me a bit of a chill with your reference to your church’s transition from clubby to missional. My beef with my own church is that it cries out for the same transition. They take the position that, no, it is I who sorely cry out for them to make that transition. The club set likes it just the way it is, which is just the way it has been since its founding more than 150 years ago.

Here’s a painfully specific idea. Have young believers from any of the Abrahamic traditions keep an eye out for advertising that directly contradicts their tradition’s doctrine. Then, they can call out the ad in a dedicated blog controlled by the young believers, advised by their elders in faith, and explain in a post why the ad is anathema to their beliefs.

Here’s a current favorite (as it were) of mine: Dow Chemical’s television ad campaign valorizing people as the grand “Human Element”, warranting even their own symbol in the Periodic Table of Elements. Humans in the image of God? No, mere elements, raw materials, heaps of “human resources” awaiting productive use.

There are many such nihilistically banal commercials and magazine and online ads like this one, and the world makes new ones every day. We should use these as counterfoil texts that can deepen our faith, and our understanding of The Word.

]]> By: Jared White http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6500 Jared White Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:22:15 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6500 Do Churches Think Small Enough? That sounds mischievously interesting. Fill me in. :) Anyway, I'll confess I haven't put pedal to the medal yet in terms of outreach to youth, but our church is in general trying to shift from a club-mentality to a missional model, so part of that will be increasing connections with youth outside the church. If I gain any amazing insight over the coming months, I'll certainly be blogging about it! Do Churches Think Small Enough? That sounds mischievously interesting. Fill me in. :)

Anyway, I’ll confess I haven’t put pedal to the medal yet in terms of outreach to youth, but our church is in general trying to shift from a club-mentality to a missional model, so part of that will be increasing connections with youth outside the church. If I gain any amazing insight over the coming months, I’ll certainly be blogging about it!

]]> By: Hugo Victor http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6458 Hugo Victor Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:02:22 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-6458 I'm more than 20 years your senior, and have a lot of relevant training and experience that fools find impressive, but you are well ahead of me in your thinking. My compliments! You and your correspondents are so right to point to the spiritual fulfillment that awaits those who turn away from the shiny baubles the world offers them. Now, if you all don't mind my getting down to it, how might we operationalize these findings of yours? How do we reach those approaching, and in, their early Twenties, and get to them where they are, instead of expecting them to reach us on our terms? I'd invite you to interpret the phrase "where they are" as broadly as you may wish. You would know what that means; I can only speculate from afar. Incidentally, the header of this piece is amusingly odd. I won't bore with the theology, but I'd feel more comfortable were it to read, "Do Churches Think Small Enough?" I’m more than 20 years your senior, and have a lot of relevant training and experience that fools find impressive, but you are well ahead of me in your thinking. My compliments!

You and your correspondents are so right to point to the spiritual fulfillment that awaits those who turn away from the shiny baubles the world offers them. Now, if you all don’t mind my getting down to it, how might we operationalize these findings of yours? How do we reach those approaching, and in, their early Twenties, and get to them where they are, instead of expecting them to reach us on our terms? I’d invite you to interpret the phrase “where they are” as broadly as you may wish. You would know what that means; I can only speculate from afar.

Incidentally, the header of this piece is amusingly odd. I won’t bore with the theology, but I’d feel more comfortable were it to read, “Do Churches Think Small Enough?”

]]> By: In the Blogosphere « Kingdom People http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1283 In the Blogosphere « Kingdom People Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:23:07 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1283 [...] Jared White wonders if my post isn’t pointing out a bigger problem: The church isn’t thinking big enough.  [...] […] Jared White wonders if my post isn’t pointing out a bigger problem: The church isn’t thinking big enough.  […]

]]> By: Jared White http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1282 Jared White Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:26:11 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1282 Thanks slw for the comment...yes, certainly we need the Spirit of God to move and empower us for anything we might do. It's not enough just to dream big and try to "make it happen" -- Lord knows I've been guilty of that. But you're right, if we're just playing around and not pressing for revival and idealism and passion, then we're just not going to retain young people. Of course, the flip side is that churches that do capture a mighty vision from the Lord often lose members who just want to do the ol' Sunday-go-to-meetin' churchianity thang. It seems to me that church done right can't be boring, but rather it must be the most incredible thing going. If young people just aren't getting into it, I think we need to question if it's due to more than just them wanting to go off and party or play games or fool around in the bedroom (pardon my bluntness). Thanks slw for the comment…yes, certainly we need the Spirit of God to move and empower us for anything we might do. It’s not enough just to dream big and try to “make it happen” — Lord knows I’ve been guilty of that. But you’re right, if we’re just playing around and not pressing for revival and idealism and passion, then we’re just not going to retain young people. Of course, the flip side is that churches that do capture a mighty vision from the Lord often lose members who just want to do the ol’ Sunday-go-to-meetin’ churchianity thang.

It seems to me that church done right can’t be boring, but rather it must be the most incredible thing going. If young people just aren’t getting into it, I think we need to question if it’s due to more than just them wanting to go off and party or play games or fool around in the bedroom (pardon my bluntness).

]]> By: slw http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1281 slw Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:55:42 +0000 http://www.callsinfinite.com/blog/2007/10/09/does-the-church-think-big-enough/#comment-1281 I think you may be on to something, as far as the need for idealism, even passion. In the old days, we would have interpreted that as a need for revival. Perhaps we could say we're guilty of offering playtime instead of pressing for revival? There are many ministries trying to capture the imagination of the young and vibrant with the big plans, but it seems to me, the lustre of that wears off if Presence isn't in it. However, once the fullness of God is experienced, nothing else will do. I think you may be on to something, as far as the need for idealism, even passion. In the old days, we would have interpreted that as a need for revival. Perhaps we could say we’re guilty of offering playtime instead of pressing for revival? There are many ministries trying to capture the imagination of the young and vibrant with the big plans, but it seems to me, the lustre of that wears off if Presence isn’t in it. However, once the fullness of God is experienced, nothing else will do.

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